Ok, that's good.

[errantember]

The deli rye is *very* good. Dense and just the right level of moisture. It has a well-balanced flavor, strong enough to assert itself, but not overwhelming when combined with other tastes. When I finished baking it, the internal temperature was 175 degrees, and the recipe said it should be 200, so next time I will probably extend the bake a bit. I also chose to make two smaller loaves instead of one big one. This, in itself, was a good idea, but I made them a bit too long and thing, so the pieces would be difficult to stuff with a lot of sandwich ingredients. Nevertheless, definitely better than I was hoping for on a first try at bread making. My father is a long-time seeded rye fan, and I will be proud to serve this to him next time we get together.

Comments

[kiki39.livejournal.com]

There are very few things in this life better than a really good loaf of rye bread. *applause*

[errantember.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[dj-warhammer.livejournal.com]

I demand a return to silly and amusing tags.

[errantember.livejournal.com]

"Just the facts" isn't doing it for you?

[dj-warhammer.livejournal.com]

Boring, dear, and you are never boring!

What do you mean I'm not boring!

[errantember.livejournal.com]

I'm *often* boring!

Hopefully *less* often these days.

[faesdeynia.livejournal.com]

Heys. . . this is Leah, oracle_tx said I should get in touch with you because we both enjoy hanging out in dark places with loud music.

Hi!

[errantember.livejournal.com]

Have we met in person?

Re: Hi!

[faesdeynia.livejournal.com]

I know that we have met at PBF, and we may have bumped into each other at a poly dinner here or there.

[jb-27.livejournal.com]

According to Peter Reinhart (my current bread guru), bread should be cooked to an internal temperature of at least 180 degrees. For pan breads with soft crusts, shoot for 180 to 190, and for hearth breads with hard crusts, shoot for more like 200. I've heard that an experienced baker can tell when the bread is done by tapping the bottom and listening for a ring like a drumhead, instead of a dull thump. Me, I always use my instant read thermometer. I pull the bread, depan it (if it's in a pan), and stick the thermometer into the thickest part from the bottom (that way the thermometer hole isn't visible). If it's under-done, I just stick it back in the oven.

Thanks!

[errantember.livejournal.com]

I was hoping you would chime in. I'll probably leave it in a little longer next time. There is a very faint yeasty odor from the bread. It doesn't negatively affect the taste, but it might have been gone if I'd gotten the temperate up another 10 or 15 degrees.

Re: Thanks!

[jb-27.livejournal.com]

Ultimately, it's what you like best that matters... I think that the temperature is more important for whole wheat breads. I made two loaves once, and one cooked to around 190, while the other cooked to around 210 (which, if I recall correctly, is the max temperature your breads should reach, since after that point, no more cooking can occur). The 190 one was noticeably moister than the 210 one. No surprise, right? The hotter temperature drove out more of the moisture as steam, I think. With white breads, my impression is that they're already so sweet and delicious because of the white flour that you've got more lattitude to overcook them. Not that there's any excuse to overcook bread, that is. On the other hand, with wheat, well, you've got to do all you can to overcome the nature of the grain.

Re: Thanks!

[errantember.livejournal.com]

The rye I made is definitely on the dryer and denser end of my preference spectrum. It's just right for this kind of rye, but I'd also like to be able to make it a airier. I have a $25 Amazon gift certificate, and I considered getting the Breadmaker's Apprentice, but I'm still researching books and also using what I have first.

Time to see what The New Best Recipe has to say about sourdough...

Re: Thanks!

[jb-27.livejournal.com]

My thoughts on related to this topic (mostly from reading, not from personal experience):

New kneaders often work too much flour into the dough during the kneading process, just trying to keep the dough from sticking. The result is an overly-dry and dense bread, since the moisture has been absorbed by the extra flour, and therefore is not able to spring in the oven and create a lighter texture.

Artisan-style breads like baguettes and other hearth breads are made with a very wet and sticky dough that can be difficult to handle. Their high moisture content is in some way related to their uneven and very open crumb, but I'm not sure exactly what the relationship is there.

More kneading seems to result in a more even crumb. I believe that more kneading also can result in a lighter bread, since the extra gluten development allows the bread to hold together better during oven spring. The guideline that I've heard is that a 2 lb loaf of whole wheat bread should get 600 strokes of kneading by hand. I have been making 4 lb batches of dough (for 2x2lb loaves), and kneading just half of that (600 strokes, or 300 strokes per loaf) noticeably improved the texture of my bread compared to less-kneaded loaves. The well-kneaded loaves had an even crumb that held together remarkably well when sliced or when butter was spread on it. It wasn't crumbly AT ALL.

If you're kneading in the mixer, I highly recommend kneading at least one loaf by hand. Get somebody to show you how to knead if you don't know how, because it's more than just shoving the dough around. I found hand-kneading to be really informative. One thing I learned was that it takes a surprising amount of manipulation to thoroughly integrate ingredients in the dough. I'd put some flour in, then knead for 100 strokes, and just when I got to thinking that the dough was too dry, all of the sudden, it would get moist and sticky again as I uncovered a "pocket" of wetness that had previously eluded me. Another thing I learned was just what a dramatic difference there was in the texture of the dough as the gluten developed. I currently recognize at least three distinct stages in gluten development: none, which is what the dough is like right out of the bowl; some, which is when it first starts to get tight and "push back"; and enough, which is when the dough gets VERY springy and it takes lots of muscle to really knead it. "Enough" usually only occurs in the last 150-200 of the 600 strokes. I can only imagine what would happen if I did another 300 strokes... I never would have been aware of that if I had been mixing exclusively in the Kitchen-Aid.

Re: Thanks!

[errantember.livejournal.com]

That's interesting.

It sounds like it would be worth trying to do some kneading by hand.

The New Best Recipe recommends whatever kind of kneading they found to work best with a given recipe. For baguettes, they recommend doing it by hand, and get into the details of how and pre-fermentation, etc. For the rye, they recommended the mixer. They also warned about the tendency to use too much flour, which is *one* of the reasons they recommend the mixer, since it doesn't require extra flour to knead. However, one place I *did* screw up was that I was supposed to save 1/4 cup of my 3 1/2 cups of rye flour for a later phase, but I didn't notice that until I'd already put the full 3 1/2 cups into it. So I decided to just add another 1/4 cup at the right phase.

It would be fun to do a bunch of test loaves with different variables changed just to see what comes out, but I'm not sure that will be practical, at least until I build a cob oven.

Re: Thanks!

[jb-27.livejournal.com]

Mr. Reinhart stresses the importance of letting the dough "dictate its needs," versus following the recipe by rote. He says that the goal is to create a dough with a certain moisture content, but the actual ratio of flour to moisture that is required will vary because the ability of the flour to absorb moisture varies depending on many factors. Therefore, he recommends learning to tell when the dough has the right feel. Specifically, he discusses three stages of wetness: sticky, tacky, and dry. Dry means that when you touch the dough, your finger comes right off. Tacky means that when you touch the dough, it sticks to your finger, but when you pull your finger away, none or very little of the dough is actually left on your finger. Sticky means that dough comes off on your finger when you touch the dough. Most doughs shoot for "tacky, but not sticky," but hard doughs might aim for dry, and rustic doughs might aim for sticky.

I find this understanding to be most relevant just after mixing and when kneading is just beginning. I typically hold back about a cup of flour and add flour in the mixing bowl just until a dough ball forms. At this point, the dough is probably far too wet for my application. Then I turn the ball out onto the table and work in the remaining flour, maybe 1/4 cup at a time, in the first 200 or so strokes of kneading. I knead maybe 50 strokes at a time to allow the flour to begin to distribute, before assessing the feel of the dough to see if it needs any more. By about 200 strokes, the dough should be pretty close to the desired moisture level, but I continue to assess every 100 strokes or so, adding a small amount of water or flour, until I get to the last 150 or 200 strokes, after which I don't add any more ingredients for fear that they won't be adequately distributed if they don't get enough kneading.

This is a process that I came up with on my own, so perhaps it contains pitfalls that I'm not aware of, but I like the results that it produces so far.

My thinking is that the 1/4 cup that they had you hold back was specifically to avoid throwing off the moisture balance when you work in flour in later phases, such as kneading or shaping. The flour in these phases isn't really being used as part of the dough. It's just there to keep things from sticking together, but it ends up getting worked into the dough anyway, so might as well hold it back in the early steps. By adding an additional 1/4 cup later, you probably made the dough dryer than it was supposed to be. This could have been mitigated by adding in an appropriate ratio of water (where the appropriate ratio depends on the desired wetness of the dough). But, honestly, I bet that the bread would have been better if you had simply skipped it.

Incidentally, if you've got a dough that's sticking, but you don't want to dry it out, just lightly mist your counter with water. The surface of the dough will get wet and won't stick, at least until the dough absorbs the water. You can do the same thing with your hands and your tools. Dip them in a bowl of water and flick them off so they're just barely moist. The dough won't stick to them.

Re: Thanks!

[errantember.livejournal.com]

Good info.

I just ordered The Bread Baker's Apprentice, and In Defense of Food from Amazon. :)

Re: Thanks!

[jb-27.livejournal.com]

Regarding the mixer vs. hand kneading: It's my impression that very wet, rustic doughs tend to do better in the mixer because you don't have to deal with dough sticking to your hands and the board. Drier doughs can over-work the motor.

Earlier, I mentioned "sticky" vs. "tacky" vs. "dry" dough. Mr. Reinhart gives equivalent tests for dough in a bowl. If the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl, when the mixer is running, it's sticky. If the dough clears the sides of the bowl but still sticks to the bottom, it's more tacky. If the dough lifts clear of the bottom of the bowl, it's dry. I don't think this is as precise as the touch-test, but it gives a guide as you're watching the motor go round and round.